As I have mentioned, I work for a nonprofit organization which has a Protestant background (2 Catholic employees among us.)  I was given the task last week of preparing a devotional for this week, centered around Ephesians 6:5-9, a passage about how slaves and masters should treat each other; essentially, slaves should work hard, not just when the master is looking, and masters should not bully slaves understanding that the same Lord is over both of them and there is no favoritism with Him.

Not being a great scripture commentator, I did what any good Catholic would do, I went to the Magisterium.  In this case, I pulled up the lectionary and looked at what readings go along with this one.  Turns out that this passage is read in Cycle A, year 2, on Wednesday of the 30th Sunday in Ordinary Time.  The other readings include passages from the 145th Psalm and the Gospel is from Luke where Jesus talks about the last being first and the first being last.  I related all these together loosely and called it quits.  Short and sweet, and I got to explain how in the Catholic Church we hear 3 different Scripture readings each weekday (5 on Sundays.)  Didn’t bother to mention how if you go to Catholic Church for 6 years you’ll hear somethinge like 90% of the Bible proclaimed in Mass.

Humorist Sheryl Crow recommended a couple of days ago on her blog that we all ought to drop back to one square of TP per sitting (three when absolutely necessary.)  Now she claims it was a joke (hmm…ever heard of a lib talking about a “botched joke before?”)

The Curt Jester has an outstanding sendup of Crow’s comments about TP and also about “virgin wood.”  (And yes, your mind is in the gutter.)

My wife is a silver award Girl Scout. My sister was involved for some years too. Of late, the Girls Scouts of America has been waxing more and more liberal, morally relativistic, anti-Christian, and anti-life (as evidenced by their partnering with Planned Parenthood for some sort of sex-ed programming.) Seeing as I have a daughter (only 2 years old so far) we’ve occasionally approached this subject, and my wife has said that it’s ultimately up to the local leader what gets propagated out to the girls. I respond with a question of, “but are you willing to be associated with what goes on at the national level and are you willing to financially support it?”

Background - I knew a leader who was taken aback when there were borderline femi-nazi messages on the Girl Scout Cookies boxes one year. In one of them, there was a little profile of a visit to a science lab of some sort by a group of girls, and a female scientist had hosted them on the visit. Stuck in the middle of the narrative was the line “Dr. XX said it’s not true that girls can’t be good at science.” On another box, the profile was of a group of girls who had gone mountain biking, and at the end of the narrative, it said, “the best part was when we raced down a hill and left a group of boys in the dust.”

At face value, nothing’s wrong with these statements, but think of the context. Rather than simply profile the events and frame them in the positive, there’s a need to introduce a gender battle into the middle of it, I would argue unnecessarily. The leader was so disturbed by these messages and the feminist agenda built into some of the materials she received from the organization that she wrote a letter to higher-ups. They responded essentially that they weren’t interested in having leaders who disagreed philosophically with the organization. As you can imagine, this leader was not a leader much longer.

Well, yesterday on EWTN radio’s Open Line program, host Barbara McGuigen took on the organization for the full hour, systematically explaining why it’s a good time to find other organizations for our daughters to be involved in. It’s 55 minutes long, but well worth the listen. Put it in your iPod or something.

I’m not sure if it’s coming off clearly in these posts, but I certainly hope it is.  Having time like this away from home and with my wife busy gives me great opportunity to really connect with my daughter.  Attachment Parenting is a great thing, and I truly believe it is an optimal way to raise a child.  But, those of you who’ve tried it know that the majority of the attachment is to Mommy as long as nursing continues.  That makes it a little difficult for Daddy to connect with the kidlette when Mommy’s nearby.  At least in my experience, it doesn’t take my little one long to “settle” for me and be very pleasant, playful, and happy to hang out with me.  Get Mommy back in the picture and I am suddenly persona non grata.  I won’t lie - this has been the hardest thing for me since day one.  It was about a year ago that I started putting her to bed instead of Mommy - and that’s made a huge difference (also, the maturing over the last year has too.)

On Saturday of the Conference, we attended 3 more sessions.  I’ll briefly highlight one, then more deeply cover the other.  One session was “The Gift of Being a Flawed Parent,” by Lu Hanessian (who’s a pretty well known author in her own right.)  Her presentation was very polished and enjoyable, and she covered the biggest problem I have - being too hard on myself, which may make me have too high of expectations for my children.

The afternoon session (following lunch and hanging out while my daughter napped again) was “The Mamas and the Papas” and was presented by seasoned LLLeader Theresa Kinzley.  The session was on the key differences between males and females - be they babies, toddlers, children, or adults. That’s the beauty of being involved in such a counter-cultural organization.  I’m valued for my unique contributions as a father and someone is willing to take the time to <gasp!> talk about how real those differences are.  In the popular culture, of course, we are all “equal,” so thanks to radical feminism, we are all “the same” by extension.  That means dads are unnecessary (except as sperm donors.)  But here, we can have an open and honest discussion about how differences exist and how we complement each other.  Theresa also gave a recommendation for a book I had been trying to get my wife interested in reading, Love and Respect, by Dr. Emerson Eggerichs.  Yes, he’s an evangelical, but his message is solid and logical.  I’m sure that’ll become a topic for a later post.

We had the privilege of attending Mass over at St. Paul’s in Cleveland.  They have a beautiful church that’s only a few years old.  Even at Saturday Vigil they had 6 altar servers, 2 acolytes, a deacon, and a priest.  At the Gospel reading, the servers processed about 3 rows up the center aisle with the missal and candles, and the deacon came out to that point to read.  After the prayer following communion, the priest walked up the center aisle and back down, personally greeting each family seated in the pews, welcoming those who were visiting, and asking visitors where they were from.  When he got to us, he thought we were familiar.  I told him we’d never been here before, and he asked us what we were doing in town.  I told him, and he said, “Great, glad you’re here!” and then asked the guy one aisle in front of us if he knew anything about the organization in which we were involved…the gentleman said no, and the priest responded, “I’ll tell you about it later.”  In the vestibule following Mass, Father asked me to clarify exactly what the organization that we’re involved in does.  When my wife and I explained, he said, “That’s an organization for which I would like to be chaplain!”

The following day was packing day for me and my daughter as my wife was in a special session for prospective leaders.  It took a while, but once we were done, we headed into Helen to check out some of the shops and sample a little fudge at the candy kitchen (just don’t tell my wife!)

I know these have been some long posts, but I am trying to express my feelings and thoughts coming out of a truly parentally - empowering weekend while they’re still fresh.  I’m sure there are readers who think I am nuts for supporting this whole AP thing and that’s okay, but I know it is capable of producing kids with self control and spirit because I saw them running around at the conference!

I’m not normally one to toot my own horn, but it’s not every day that someone who is arguably a key voice for the culture of life, natural family planning, and natural family-raising, comments on a blog post by some schmoe in northwest Georgia.  So, to be brief, Sheila Kippley, of NFP International (author (or co author) of great books like The Art of NFP, Breastfeeding and Natural Child Spacing, and more) commented on my blog post from a few days ago.  In her comment she mentions that she’ll be speaking at the big La Leche League International Conference in Chicago this July.  This is something my wife is hoping to be able to attend, but I just can’t due to work obligations.

The problem with this sort of thing, of course, is that it might lead me to believe that this blog has some shred of significance…

I hate to break into my series on the LLL conference, but plastered on the home page of Yahoo tonight is this story.

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Roman Catholic Church has effectively buried the concept of limbo, the place where centuries of tradition and teaching held that babies who die without baptism went.

You have to get to the 5th paragraph before they mention, by the way, limbo was never official doctrinal teaching. Later in the article, they point out that limbo was not mentioned in the 1992 CCC. Logically, they’re implying that it was mentioned in a previous CCC. the only thing I could find was research indicating it was mentioned in the Baltimore Catechism at some point, but even that’s hazy. They act like this is big news because it points out an inconsistency in Church teaching, and pokes holes in all Church teachings, therefore. Whadd’ya expect from Reuters, though?

La Leche League is basically an agnostic organization. Why, then, do I occupy time on a Catholic blog to talk about it? Well, for one thing, it’s my blog. For another, what LLL teaches makes so much sense within a Catholic construct. Long-term breastfeeding as the baby needs it is a key component to natural family planning, via the supression of female fertility - it creates natural child spacing. When baby #1 is done with the breast, then it’s time for #2 to come along (although in our current society it is very difficult to do totally ecological breastfeeding.)

One really cool thing about being around a bunch of LLL families is that you don’t see them slapping their kids around, yelling at them, etc. While LLL doesn’t officially teach attachment parenting, they do talk about “loving guidance,” which essentially flies in the face of any of the baby training methods out there. Rather than tempt the child to grab something and then whack them when they do, there are many better ways to deal with it that won’t teach the child to hit people and things. There’s a degree of pleasantness that you don’t get over at Wal-Mart in the checkout line. Kids are everywhere but there’s something different.

On Friday, I attended 2 of the 3 available sessions, because the third one was right through Caroline’s nap time. I’ll speak about one here - “Let’s Get Together - Parents as Partners.” This one was run by a husband and wife, Bryan and Tammy Veatch. Tammy’s one of the regional accreditation folks in the organization. The main point of the session was focused on dealing with disagreements between husband and wife with regard to raising the kids. The example they brought up was in deciding whether to home-school their kids. Tammy wanted to home school, Bryan (a public school teacher) wanted to put the kids in private school. They basically tried one way and then the other…and they are public-schooling them now.

We headed back to the cabin for lunch, and I hung out and read while my daughter napped. My wife headed to the next session. When the munchkin awoke, we had a snack and then went for a walk along the lake trail, winding up at the primitive campsites. Along the way I was asked to throw various sticks, rocks, and caterpillars into the lake. We played on the playground a few minutes and then headed back to the cabin, connecting with my wife shortly after.

Since my daughter’s birth, my wife has been involved in La Leche League, meeting with the most local group we have, which is in Calhoun, Georgia (25 miles up the road.) For the initiated, La Leche League was founded 50 years ago to support mothers in breastfeeding their children. At that time, of course, the medical community was telling us that formula is substantially better than breastmilk at nourishing babies, and we were buying it even though it makes no sense at all. The founders advocated for breastfeeding mothers’ rights to provide nutrition to their babies, and eventually developed an international organization with key principles recognizing the superiority of breastmilk for feeding babies, that mothers instinctively know what is best for their children, that fathers have a unique role to play in child-rearing, and that loving guidance (which is nearly synonymous with the concept of attachment parenting) is most effective in developing children who are well-behaved but not devoid of personality or rebellious (both of which can result from baby-training methods like Furber or Ezzo.)

Anyway, for the second year, I attended the annual conference with my wife and daughter. Last year it was at a big hotel in metro Atlanta, but this year it was at Unicoi State Park and Lodge near alpine Helen, Georgia. Unicoi’s a much better location, and it’ll be there again next year. Thursday morning, we loaded up the minivan, and I mean to the hilt, because we had 2 additional passengers, a mother and child who are in our group, whose husband/father wasn’t going to be able to arrive till Friday afternoon. I’ve never loaded the roof rack of a minivan before, but I learned.

Now, I don’t have an illusions about my role at this event. My major purpose is to keep our stuff organized and keep my daughter occupied so my wife can get the greatest benefit from the conference sessions. She’s considering being a LLL leader, so she needs to be able to give her attention to how things are conducted and what’s taught. So, after dropping off all my passengers at a picnic shelter where a barbecue was taking place, I went to our cabins and unloaded…our stuff and our additional passengers’ stuff.

Rather than one loooong post, I will pause here to collect my thoughts for the next installment.

Here’s the next part!

You missed two points that I made. First the Bible teaches that when we were saved our salvation and thus our eternal life was a complete and finished work of God. We are saved only by the grace of God and by the faith in Christ given to us by the working of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a free gift of God. We did nothing to be saved and we have nothing to boast about. Does it seem logical that you or I can fall from the hand of our loving Lord? I think not! We are secure in Him! Our eternal home in heaven is a sure as the finish work of Christ at Calvary. You and I need no further forgiveness or cleansing to enter our eternal home in heaven. There is no need for a place called Purgatory. All our sins, past, present and future were forgiven when we were saved. Our soul was washed forever clean in the sight of God by the blood of the Lamb making us fit for heaven.

Second, since you seen to equate daily repentance and forgiveness as a requirement for eternal life you miss the point of the consequences of allowing our life to be led by our fleshly lusts. When we live for self we stumble and fall and in our disobedience we sin. That sin hinders our witness for Christ to the world. It hinders our ability to serve our Lord with good works. It hinders our commutation with our Lord through prayer.

If you would be blessed of the Lord you will surrender self to the leading of the Holy Spirit and thus avoid the sin of disobedience. Remember that God hates sin. Should “you have a pet sin which you really enjoy, and so you resist repenting of it and confessing”, God may chasten you for that deliberate sin. An extreme example in Acts 5 is the death of Ananias and Sapphira who with hearts of greed lied and keep back part of the price of the land they sold. I believe these sinful people were saved and when God struck them dead they did not loose their eternal life. A component of the fear of God drives us to repentance and confession to the Lord of the daily sin we commit as we live in this sinful flesh in this present life.

My response:

Reasonable response. Allow me to clarify. I don’t believe daily repentance and forgiveness are a requirement for eternal life, but I do believe that they are a requirement for our growth, our sanctification - thus I believe our sanctification is a lifelong process completed at the time we are purified in Purgatory.

I believe that your example of Ananias and Sapphira is quite apt because their situation, much like that of King David’s loss of the son resulting from his adultery, fits in perfectly with the principle that it sin that is forgiven can still result in temporal punishment. Doesn’t hinder your salvation, but still results in suffering.

—

At this point, I am trying to gracefully end the discussion - we have made our points and we’re going to start going in circles. I keep saying how I am not trying to convince him but to inform him…he’s still trying to change my mind.

Impromptu Purgatory Discussion, Part quatre

If you haven’t already read the first 3 posts on this topic, please do that before reading this one!

My conversation partner responds:

First, thanks for clearing up my thinking concerning the Catholic Church and Purgatory. I have always thought that your church taught that salvation was administered through the church and that lost sinners would have opportunity be forgiven of sins and enter heaven after they had died. I thought the idea was that the lost soul didn’t go straight to hell but given a ’stop-over’ in Purgatory. While in Purgatory the church was able to administer forgiveness and this lost soul would then enter heaven. The net result was that every member of the Catholic Church would go to heaven. From what you said that is not the teaching of your church. We agree that the decision to accept or reject God’s free gift of eternal life is the choice everyone must make in this present age.

I would like to address with this email your statement, “Purgatory is a final purification, but it’s a purification of those who have chosen to accept what’s been freely given.” This statement implies that for a believer a final purification from sin is needed. I call your attention to two Bible references. First, Romans 6:22-23 followed by Ephesians 2:8-10.

Rom 6:22-23

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NKJV

Read the heart of verse 22. “Now having been set free for sin — you have — everlasting life.” And then read the end of verse 23. “The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” When the Lord saved us by his free gift we WERE (past tense) set free from sin and we WERE (past tense) given eternal life. Do you think it reasonable that our Lord would take back that free gift and our eternal life? I think not! Our eternal life is dependent entirely on Him; on His death, burial and resurrection and not upon what we do or do not do. Note the Romans 6:22 that we are slaves of God. As slaves we are solely dependent upon our Master and it is in Him that we live or die.

Eph 2:3-10

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

NKJV

Notice that God, because of His great love for us HAS made us alive with Christ and HAS raised us up together with Him. For every born again believer this is a finished work. God has done this for His glory, not for ours, that He might show forth His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. We are saved only by the grace of God and by the faith in Christ given to us by the working of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a free gift of God. We did nothing to be saved and we have nothing to boast about. Does it seem logical that you or I can fall from the hand of our loving Lord? I think not! We are secure in Him! Our eternal home in heaven is a sure as the finish work of Christ at Calvary.

I do not understand why but the Lord chose to keep us in this human body until he calls us home. Because we live in this human body with its natural lusts, we have a spiritual challenge to do the good works ‘which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them’. We are in Christ Jesus (a done deal) for the purpose of doing good works.

As believers we have the presence of the Holy Spirit abiding in us to guide us and give us the ability to do good works. But we have the lust of the flesh that is able to prevent us from following the leading of the Holy Spirit. Yes, we do stumble and fall and in our disobedience we sin. That sin hinders our witness to the world. It hinders our ability to serve our Lord. It hinders our commutation with our Lord through prayer. I thank the Lord for 1 John 1:9.

1 John 1:9-10

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

NKJV

This wonderful daily cleansing is available to all of us. But my daily falling and stumbling is not able to separate me from the love of God and His great salvation that is in Christ Jesus.

Rom 8:37-39

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NKJV

And I respond:

Well, your first paragraph indicates that I have reached my goal in even having this conversation - to inform you about the authentic teaching of the Catholic Church and to give you the backup for it. We could go back and forth a good bit more and neither of us is going to convince the other that we’ve got it right…because it truly does come down to interpretation of Scripture. Interpret it one way and you get Purgatory, interpret it the other way and you don’t.

That said, let me pose one question to one point you brought up:

1 John 1:9-10

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

NKJV

This wonderful daily cleansing is available to all of us. But my daily falling and stumbling is not able to separate me from the love of God and His great salvation that is in Christ Jesus.

Now the last thing I want here is to start a second line of discussion on Catholics and confession (that should be considered separately so we don’t try and attack multiple topics at one time.) So, in this upcoming paragraph, when I refer to repenting/confessing/asking forgiveness, I am staying within your framework, confessing directly to God.

The teaching is that in Purgatory you are purified of sins you haven’t yet confessed. At the time of baptism and then each time you repent of and confess your sins, you are cleansed. The problem comes in with the sins which you resist confessing due to pride, or outright rebellion for that matter…let’s say you have a pet sin which you really enjoy, and so you resist repenting of it and confessing. It doesn’t call into question your salvation at all - that’s been freely given and you’ve accepted it. Still, what about those sins you have just not repented of and asked forgiveness for at the time of death? By your own decision to avoid repenting of those sins, you’ve not received the wonderful daily cleansing that’s available for those specific sins. Those are the sins which are cleansed from you in Purgatory - they still exist on your soul because you’ve not repented, confessed, and asked that you be cleansed of them on Earth.